Engaging the Next Generation

Host Paul Baldwin talks with Isaac Ramirez, pastor of Youth & Young Adult Ministries at Miami Vineyard Church, along with Daniel Ramos, a student impacted by the ministry, about the unique challenges of inviting and including youth and young adults into the mainstream ministries and services of a church. The mantra of “Belong, Believe, Become” shapes their approach as well as the 3 key questions students are asking.

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Transcript

And a lot of churches have made a difficult connection in those two. Yeah, what's up? 

Do you hear the dude mowing the grass?

I don't hear it, no. 

Okay, oh, wait. Do you feel it on here? 

Dude, I hear that. I'm like, wait a minute. 

Welcome to the Elemental Leaders Podcast, designed to help you grow more effective in your leadership. Visit us at ElementalGroup.org for more resources and free downloads. 

Welcome to the Elemental Leaders Podcast. On this particular episode, we are going to orbit our entire conversation around engaging the next generation. I've got a couple of guys on the podcast today, Isaac Ramirez and Daniel Ramos. They serve in a large church, the Miami Vineyard Church. Isaac, you're a pastor at this church. Tell us what you do.

I have the honor to be the youth and young adult pastor here at Miami Vineyard. I am currently getting a master's degree in family ministry at Southeastern University.

Daniel, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do, what's your role serving with Pastor Isaac? 

I'm currently a college student. I'm 19 years old. I just got out of high school not that long ago. Studying music, music education. What I do at my church is basically, I'm a worship leader. I jump from the youth to young adults to singing on the mains, you know. 

One of the things that has been a challenge for a lot of churches has been to make the connection between, we'll call it the mainstream congregation and the next generation. Let's say ages 17, 18, 19 through even the 20s. How do you guys approach connecting and engaging the younger generation in ministry? What strategies are you finding to be effective? 

I love that I get to sit down here with my good friend Daniel. I met Daniel when he was 16 and being able to see Daniel now interning and helping in student ministry, but also living out his purpose and his calling as he leads worship in different spaces and areas. I believe it's the goal. What do we see in these young people and what can we call out of them? Like, hey, I see calling, I see vision, I see potential. And are we calling that out of them? Are we connecting with this next generation because we need them? Or are we connecting with this next generation because we know that they need us to push them to their next step in their journey? 

You just said something really significant. I want to make sure our listening audience understands the difference in what you just said. So you said we want to make sure that they feel like they are needed, that you are actually here for them. You're going to push them. You're going to advocate for them to help them to discover their purpose. There was tension in what you said because the impression I got was that a lot of churches sometimes will look at young adults and say, hey, they could help us rather than approach it from how can we help them? Am I getting that right? 

Yeah, that's correct. It's almost like relationship. When you're looking to get into marriage, you're looking to satisfy something for yourself. But then when you get into marriage, you really realize how marriage is about the other person and how you compliment them and help them grow. I believe that's the same way when it comes to next-gen and ministry and next-gen and nonprofits. This generation doesn't want to just talk about it or pray about it or post on social media about it. They want to do something about it. And what are those tools? What are those ramps? What are the paths that we are providing for them to walk into what God has designed them to do, the purpose that God has implanted or planted in their life? 

Daniel, how have you experienced that? You grew up in the church. You've been there for how long? 

Since I was 14. 

Since you were 14 years old. So you spent a good part of your teenage life and now your young adult life in the church. Has there been a time where you felt like maybe they just want me because I'm willing or do you feel like they're an advocate for you? Talk about your experience there. 

Yeah, yeah. Ever since I've been growing up, we've been always through the mantra which we use in the youth, the three B's, belong, believe, but come. We try to share that with all those students. 

Let me just kind of repeat that. So you're saying the culture is one of belonging. It leads to belief and then becoming. I think you talk a little bit about that pathway. I've heard you use the language before pathway over programs. How do you, you got a very large ministry down there. How do you create pathways for hundreds of people and prioritize that over programming? 

Studies show that every year, 20% of your curriculum is irrelevant. We are now in 2024. When I started, it was 2020, kind of in that pandemic era. It was more of like, okay, program systems have failed to an extent. Not that it's not needed, but it shouldn't be the main focus. It shouldn't be the driver. So we said, how can we engage students? How can we bring people back into the building to experience all that God has for them? And then, and then it changed in 2021, which we're still in the pandemic, but not in the pandemic. You know, we're in or out. Some were vaccinated. Some were not in discussions and masks or no masking, but then we're in 2022 and we're full. Everyone's left the pandemic behind 2023, but every single year, 20% of my programming, 20% of the stuff I was bringing for the students was completely irrelevant. So I believe it's a pathway because it's like, hey, how do I connect the young people to their next step? And it might be different for everybody. One ring doesn't fit every finger. So what's the pathway? Pathway over programming always because it's always focused on the person and not on the structure. 

And the program serves the pathway. 

The program itself, you know, and again, I'm not anti-program. I mean, that's what we need more. We need more structure, but where is there a collide where the program can meet the person's need? Young people are asking themselves three questions. Do you care about me? Can you help me? And can I trust you? And that's where you really connect the dots of we need to be people over programming, people over structure, people over tools and strategies because we're in the people's business. 

Daniel, talk about your experience. So you've been there since you were 14, you're 19. Yes. And Isaac has been there three years. So you have been at the church longer than Isaac. So at some point you felt like this was a place that cared about me, that could help me. And it's a place that I could trust. Can you talk a little bit about that experience? So how did that work out for you? 

I have to remember at the end of the day, at least for me personally, as somebody who serves, it can't be about me, you know? As long as he's bringing those changes that helps the youth grow to their full potential, that's all that matters. 

Help me navigate the new individual that comes into your community. Maybe you meet them at an event outside of the church. Maybe you meet them at McDonald's or something like that. And you've invited them to come experience your community, speak to their skepticism, their natural distrust. Because obviously Daniel, you've been there for a while and you're bought in and you trust and you feel like it's a safe place. You feel like you're being helped, you feel like you've got purpose, you feel like you've got contribution. But this new person doesn't. How do we connect with them? 

What we have to do is just listen to the person instead of saying, "Oh, we have this event and that event." Say, "Hey, do you have any events that we can maybe go to?" Try to get to know the person because at least from my standpoint, when I was in high school, like Isaac was saying, in the school system, everything's about structure. It has to be certain this way and that way. And there's times where some teachers, you know, they care for the students, but sadly there's also teachers who don't. And it's the same thing in their household. So we don't know what the student or young adults going through, whether they're in college or high school. So we just have to be gentle with them because at the end of the day, being a follower of Christ is not a hop, a skip, and a step. It's a marathon. 

I love being a follower of Christ. It's not a hop, a skip and a jump. It's a marathon. What you just did there, Daniel, what you just narrated was that first question. Do you care about me? Because do you care about me if you do that well leads to belonging, right? 

You don't have to believe to belong. And I think that's why we get it wrong sometimes. We're like, hey, you have to believe this. Like even a business model, I mean, you don't have to be a member to walk into a shopping center and shop, you know? It's not like I'm walking to Target and they're like, hey, you're not a member. Get out of here. But after my experience at shopping there, I can decide, man, I really want to be closer to these people. I want to connect more. I want to get discounts. I want to get 20% off. You know, what spaces and environments are we providing for people to belong that may not know the Bible, that may not go to church, that may not be intentional with our products? Because remember, we're casting out nets, right? And what are those strategies? What are those things that you are bringing where people can feel that they belong? And what Daniel said, listening, it's something that we neglect sometimes. Like we believe that teenagers don't have issues because they don't pay bills. But we've seen more than any time in history how depressed students are this time in age, how much stress they're dealing with and loneliness and how suicide rates have come up. Do you really care about me? Or do you just want me to come and sit and leave and try to believe what you're trying to push into me? 

And something that I heard recently was we can't give this generation content because that's what they have the most. But this generation needs this genuine and tangible love of people that truly care for them.

 And the question is, hey, do you want something from me or do you want something for me? Does that mean belief is unimportant or less important? I think the obvious answer is no. But can you answer that question? 

Jesus didn't ask his disciples, do you believe? He said, follow me. So Jesus himself understood it was a journey where he was going to walk with them. But if we're not willing to walk the walk, we can't talk the talk. 

We've got some pastors and these pastors are saying, hey, we know we need to reach the next generation. How can we do that? Can you offer a couple of ideas that might help them do that in a way that they aren't just offering a program? They're actually offering a space of belonging. 

I know every context is different, but I think people are the same when it comes to this. And I would say show up. I mean, Daniel, you can, I mean, how many events have I showed up of, you know, your recitals at school, graduations? 

It's a very simple answer. Show up. What would that look like in your life, Daniel? 

Knowing that Pastor Isaac's just there, there's people who have, whether they have parent figures or parental figures who aren't there, like his majority of now's generation, their parents are divorced or they're just not in the picture. So really, like Isaac, like I'm happy that he was able to go to my events. Like we should be there for students. Even here, we have something where we have like a calendar on the wall where we tell students, hey, if you have any events or anything, just anything, like a birthday party or a basketball game, anything, just write down the date, the address and whatever leader we have available will go to support you. 

Get out of the church building. This reminds me of it when my wife and I had our first child. I was 21 years old and she was 20 years old. So we were pretty young when we had our first child. Dawn and Marge Smith, they're now close to 90 years old. They showed up with a meal to our house. So they demonstrated that they cared. They demonstrated that they wanted to help. And they were the safest people in the world. They had no agenda at all other than just to show up and care for us. I will tell you that eventually we both came into a more sincere faith because of several acts of love like that. We actually ended up attending that church. We weren't even going to that church that they went to. They knew about us through our parents from another relationship and they just showed up. 

And you even see now, like even in college campuses, you see companies coming in. I mean, I was at Miami Dade, a College here, and like Chick-fil-A was there and other organizations. Promoting and giving free things to the kids, you know, no strings attached. I believe that people smell when there's a strange attach. But when people really see the genuine and the love and the care that you have that you would like take some time to be there, to show up, to give something with no strings attached. They want to be part of more. They want more. Hey, how can I partner with this? How can I do it different? How can I make a difference with this? And we've seen it more than ever before. This generation wants to be part of something greater than themselves. So what are those tools that we're providing so they can excel in many areas? I mean, when it comes to young adults, our biggest young adult attracting event is serve days. And that's a church event. Like when we do serve day, I believe those are the times that we connect with more young adults than any other event that we do as a church. Like getting off campus and just getting off campus, loving the city. As we love the city, people like, hey, I don't care what they believe, but I want to be part of that. And that's the belonging stage. And then they'll believe, then they'll be like, hey, what is this? Is this a church? Yeah, we're a church. Come through and then you see them come in Thursday nights and getting involved and going out to trips with the young adults. And that's where they become all that God has for them. 

And if you think about it, that's almost just another demonstration of that first question. Do you care about me? Probably the first thing I need to see is do you even care about the community? Yeah. And if you care about the community, then chances are kind of indirectly, you're probably going to care for me. But because you care about the community and so do I, that's a connection point. We'll meet each other out in the community. Yeah. And that's where I'll feel safe. And that's where I'll feel like, hey, maybe there's a relationship here. And then at some point they may end up in your building participating in one of the programs that are there. 

Well, let me ask you this question then. What are some common misconceptions or stereotypes about next generation like faith and spirituality that you've encountered? And maybe how do you address those? 

Yeah, it's tough because many people think this is the most disengaged, lazy, disrespectful generation in the last 500 years. But I would say, and we've seen studies like Barna recently did a study, and even though this is the most dechurched generation or the religious generation or the generation that doesn't have clear values, work ethic or whatever. It is the most open generation to receive spirituality, to receive opinions on values. And this is the most open generation. But I think we live in a fatherless generation. I'm not saying that everyone's an orphan. I'm just saying we don't have fathers and mother figures. When it comes to business and money, how to manage money, there's not people speaking into young people's life. Therefore, they have stereotypes. Oh, they're just bored. I'm not relevant. But they really want to hear from you guys. They really want to hear from the older generation. They want to learn. They value their opinions. We're just in a place where we're answering questions that no one's asking. 

Can you tell me more about that? 

We're answering questions that no one's asking. I believe that's where stereotypes kicks in. Oh, this generation doesn't want wisdom. So let's just bang on them like this generation and this generation and back in the old days and like, no, hey, let's talk about now. You guys are the generation of now. Are we encouragers or are we stuck in our old ways where we can like tear down this generation because our generation is better? And I believe that's where stereotype is happening because we're answering the wrong questions. This generation asking completely different questions. They're not saying, hey, my mom used to beat me up 30 years ago. I'm going to beat you up too. No, no, no, they're talking like, hey, I want to have a conversation. I want to have, I want to be a friend relationship with my parents. 

We recently did a survey first time ever in our church. We hosted a parent conference. It was something awesome. It blew off our expectations. We had like around 80 people sign up. We expected 50 to 60% show up. We had 106 parents here. Wow. We partnered with an organization called Wellspring and they brought a speaker and it was super interesting to see parents wanting to get better at parenting. But something that actually broke our heart. We did a survey with our students. And the question was, what did you wish your parents knew? And I mean, we got all kinds of things. But one of the most relevant things would be, I want my parents to talk to me to understand what I'm going through and not be judged by them. And I believe that's the problem. We cannot judge this generation. We need to lead this generation. They want to be led. 

So in a sense, you're saying that young adults, even in their own home at times are feeling like this is not a place where I belong. Daniel, you're a little bit younger. What misconceptions or stereotypes have you even sensed people had on you? Even in the church, what would you want them to understand? 

I mean, at this point, everybody just wants to be heard. It's always the same thing we always heard every time we were growing up is to never judge a book by its cover, you know? And majority of the time, that's what we do. We judge people based on how they look. And we don't get to really know them and what they're going through. 

One of the most beautiful pictures, stories and scriptures is the woman at the well, right? And Jesus and the disciples, you know, went through that region. Even the disciples are like, we don't need to go through this region. He's like, no, we're going to go through there because I got something in mind, right? And he has this, begins to have this conversation with the woman at the well. And having spoken with you guys today, that story just kind of leaps off the page now because think about what Jesus was doing. Jesus was engaging her. He was interested in her rather than trying to be interesting. He asked her questions. He valued her. What was he doing? He was giving her a sense of belonging and to the point, right? Where he dropped some truth in there and he pressed a little bit, but not before he cultivated the culture of belonging, which led to her belief, which then led by the power of God in her life, through her life, to her becoming something completely different. And she led so many people to the Lord. That's the power of a simple process that you guys are laying out. 

Those three questions tend to shape the structure of your guys' ministry, it seems like. How can we create a culture where belonging leads to belief, leads to becoming, that seems to be the way of Jesus? 

I love that you mentioned the woman at the well. Jesus got out of his way to provide a way. What are we willing as leaders to get out of our ways, or our structures or our priorities, to reach this generation? Like what are some things that we've been doing for the last 30, 40 years that maybe we need to adjust to get out of our way to make a way for the next generation? 

I think that's a great place to land. These concepts of belong, believe, become, you know, these critical questions. Do you care about me? Are you going to help me? Is it safe? These are pathway creating questions and principles. One of the things that you said today that I thought was so good that should be contextualized was if you want to connect, if you want your church to invite and include younger people, then just show up. Even if it's something you've never done before, go ahead and show up. I mean, good grief. That's good parenting advice too, right? That's good friendship advice. I just want to say thank you for making an effort to be here. So appreciate you, dude. 

Thank you. So grateful to be part of this. 

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